This past week, we've seen some great action in many key political debates. Whether it be Save Roberts Stadium vs those who don't or I-69 versus high speed rail, I am very proud to say that I have been making tremendous progress on both fronts in the battle to turn the town around.
In the past 48-72 hours we've been treated to 3 different I-69 articles from the Courier & Press. I have many comments about what positions have been taken and many people have issued questions and comments at me specifically.
Since there was a flurry of questions and comments, I will attempt to answer and address all of them in this one post. Let's dive into the articles and posts...
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2011/aug/01/no-headline---ev_interstate69/First of all, the fact that INDOT is holding Bloomington's funding hostage in an attempt to get their way with I-69 is nothing short of pathetic and desperate. It also confirms why the best route for I-69 was not chosen- because INDOT had an agenda to ram their plan down every one's throats in southern Indiana.
cinbad06 writes in response to
RailOverAuto:
I must disagree with you here. WHy in the world do you want to waste taxpayer money already spent? I thought you were against wasting money ( like the Stadium issue in which I now agree with you on). This Highway has been long planned, long approved and these idiots in Monroe County are trying to stall and cost tax payers even MORE wateflul spending. Let the darn thing be built and stop the wasting of money or potential to waste even more to argue silly points. INDOT already modified this highway 3 times for these people up there. They just do not want it( and they are the ONLY town that does not---selfish people they are) and are trying to act like a childish baby by laying down and kicking and screaming. Little infant like tantrums they throwing to think they will get their way. What a shame. I like your ideas for high speed rail, but in these short distances it makes no sence. Now Chicago to N.Y or Cinci to NY or St. Louis to NY, that makes more sense. But Evansville to Indy......really makes no sense (economically a waste since people would have to rent a vehicle once in Indy or take a cab adding further to the expense). Sorry to disagree, but respectfully do.......and very strongly........
No problem, I appreciate your willingness to debate and not just pick an idea for no reason and stick to it.
Long story short, I am opposed to I-69 for many reasons but here are a few...
1. It is expensive not the lawsuits.. I-69 supporters claim that the lawsuits are wasting money yet here we are with an interstate that will go well over $5 billion. INDOT originally said the terrain would be $750 million, yet now admits it is $3.31 billion. I'm just sure the lawsuits are to blame for this minor accounting error.
2. It makes no sense. Mapquest Evansville to Bloomington. You can go up 41 and then over from Vincennes and it would be within 5 miles of the new terrain path. The first 3 segments never get more than 20-30 miles away from US 41. A complete waste. No reason why this road couldn't go 41- I-70 ( the Terre Haute bypass is already under construction I believe) or go up to Vincennes/ Sullivan and then over on 68. The only reason why they didn't do that was greed.
3. Lack of jobs: They give you the line 47,000 jobs are created for every billion spent yet they themselves are only projecting 4,600 permanent jobs. It's kind of hard to build on a road that goes through a wildlife refuge. In fact, this road will end up costing several million PER JOB.
4. It kills the environment. Over 4,000 acres will be lost and for what? A route that will be shorter by 13 or less miles?
5. High Speed Rail is cleaner, faster, cheaper, greener, safer, more reliable, and more productive.
It is our only real hope of bringing downtown back to life, getting a real slack water port, or living in Evansville and working in Indianapolis which you cannot do daily with I-69 (which is why HSR is better for these distances).
In regards to getting around.. even Amtrak already has the auto train which carries your vehicle with you. You can also do Zip Car in most big cities now. I myself could not make it to the Brickyard 400 this weekend even though I had tix because my car has been acting up and it died up in Indy when I went to the 500 in May so that is a much better solution.
Lastly, Indy is beginning the process of building light rail. If Evansville doesn't do this themselves they will once more fall behind other cities but will have no one to blame but themselves.
ThinkMore writes in response to
RailOverAuto:
#1 LOL, It would have been cheaper to do it 50 years ago when they should
have.
#2 Stoplights? Have you ever driven this?
#3 Who cares? Evansville is the only major metro in Indiana NOT on an
interstate directly from Indy. You don't think this stunts growth and jobs in
Evansville?
#4 If you want to help the environment, improve the gas mileage of car
traffic... stoplights = bad mileage.
#5 Smoking crack? We in Evansville can't even get a long overdue highway...
you think we will get high-speed rail?
We just want what EVERY OTHER part of Indiana has, a road to the capital.
Look at HWY 70 and 74 West... should have combined those and built our highway
YEARS ago.
#1. Nice way to completely dodge the financial impact of the interstate. It amazes me that most I-69 supporters just act like $5 billion grows on trees (especially since most give lectures on government spending). This road doesn't make sense no matter what time period you're from, even if it's the 50s when this technology was at its peak.
#2. I have driven both to Bloomington and Terre Haute. There is no difference. You want stoplights of 41, take them out. Much cheaper than new terrain. Even KY understands this. In fact most of the current I-69 terrain from Tennessee to the W KY Parkway has stoplights that will be taken out.
#3 Who cares? Job creation is supposedly the whole point of this boondoggle.
#4 Using stoplight removal as the prime solution to environmental emissions is like building a moat that will slow someone from entering your castle for only a handful of minutes. The automobile in no way shape or form is sustainable. Plowing through over 4,000 acres of land and relying on the automobile which relies on oil and gas are serious problems that will not be addressed by removing stoplights.
#5. This area probably won't get hsr for awhile but it will be their own fault. They are wasting all of their time and resources on building a 50 year old road and will then wonder why they are behind in the hsr race (which is already happening).
Lastly, there is an I-69 road to Indy. It's called US 41/ I-70. I-70/I-74 is no doubt a joke of epic proportions. Why would you want to replicate that? Would you replicate another towns budget if it was in debt?
KRisley writes in response to
RailOverAuto:
I drive to Evansville up to three times a month, so for argument's sake I
tried this route. It adds over an hour to the trip. I-69 is coming and it
can't get here soon enough.
This is an opinion so I can't do much with it other than to say I prefer taking the US 41 route to Bloomington. What I can say is that the two trips are within 5 miles. Therefore, if US 41 was upgraded to I-69 and state road 68 was upgraded to a freeway, the trip would be just as quick as the current plan.
home_finally_in_Evansville writes:
First, I have been a fan of railroads all my life and for most of my adult life lived in a major city with Amtrak access, heavy commuter rail plus integrated subway, trolley car and bus systems.
RailOverAuto said:"5. High Speed Rail is cleaner, faster, cheaper, greener, safer, more reliable, and more productive."
Clean, fast, green, safe, reliable, productive I can sign off on, cheap not so much. Capital expense for any rail on a new route is the same or more than for conventional highway construction. The same environmental and real-estate issues come into play. High Speed Rail (HSR) on existing trackage is a non-starter.
"It is our only real hope of bringing downtown back to life, getting a real slack water port, or living in Evansville and working in Indianapolis which you cannot do daily with I-69 (which is why HSR is better for these distances)."
I'm not sure how high-speed passenger rail will jump start the freight-only slack water port; but I'm open to listening to how that would happen.
As to commuting daily to Indy, that is absurd. Even with HSR, the number of people whose residence and office are within 15 minutes of each terminus is tiny, if any actually exist. I understand that if an HSR route is built, developers will sell the idea. However, the distances are just too great. I am personally aware of folks who tried the concept between Boston and Providence RI (45 miles) and they all gave up after a year or two. Currently, Amtrak charges $79 round trip for the 35 minute HSR and $28 round trip for the 45 minute trip. It gets quite expensive for a daily commute. The job this depends on would be quite a lucrative indeed. (I only include Amtrak, because the local commuter rail trip takes 1hr 15 minutes.) Sources: Amtrak (http://tickets.amtrak.com/)MBTA (http://www.mbta.com/)
"In regards to getting around.. even Amtrak already has the auto train which carries your vehicle with you. "Auto-Train only runs to central Florida from DC. It used to run from Chicago to Florida, but it was discontinued for lack of ridership. The Channel Tunnel has auto carriages, but that requires specialized equipment unlikely to be subsidized by the US government.
"You can also do Zip Car in most big cities now."This is very true, but it adds to the daily cost of commuting (see above).
"Lastly, Indy is beginning the process of building light rail. If Evansville doesn't do this themselves they will once more fall behind other cities but will have no one to blame but themselves."
Indianapolis is 7 times larger than Evansville and can justify the demand. Evansville has problems keeping METS running. (source: 2011 Census http://www.in.gov/legislative/senate)
As much as I like the idea of HSR, it just makes no sense here and I-69 is a better alternative.
Several good questions and comments here so I will start by saying this....
1. High Speed Rail is cheaper than interstate construction. One railway track mile uses 0.42 football field(s) worth of land compared to one highway mile that equals 1.10. Also...
http://www.vhsr.com/system/files/roadvsrail.pdfhttp://www.indianahighspeedrail.org/whyHSR.htm2. The reason why our slack water port in the Howell Rail Yards has such great potential is because of its great railway access. If we speed these trains up, this will reduce the costs of goods that are perishable as well as open up several long distance markets.
3. Buses and railways are not the same...
http://www.america2050.org/2011/07/while-buses-play-a-valuable-role-they-are-no-replacement-for-high-speed-rail.html4. Unfortunately, Amtrak IS NOT high speed rail outside of the ACELA in the Northeast corridor which is questionable at best given that it can only get up to 110 mph. When factoring all costs for the automobile such as insurance, maintenance, and government regulations, high speed rail is a fraction the cost of the automobile. If I could get a job working for the Indiana Pacers or the Indianapolis Colts would I take high speed rail every day? YES!
5. Light rail is needed in Evansville because it dramatically raises the price of properties around it. Like our new arena, light rail has the potential to bring downtown back to life. This is also why high speed rail is better than I-69. Instead of encouraging urban sprawl like I-69, high speed rail will give our downtown an urban renaissance if given the opportunity.
soccerdaddy2003 writes:
RailOverAuto, do you really believe trains are going to be cost-effective in a
state like IN with a very dispersed population?
How do you see this working for someone going from say Boonville to Mooresville (or any point say 15 miles outside of Indy)? Do you think it is really more practical or cheaper to drive to the local train station, buy a ticket, wait for the train, ride the
train, then take a taxi once you get the Indy station?
Remember, you can't say the train is going to stop all along the way in places like Boonville or Mooresville because if it did it would then take forever to get to Indy.
Have you really thought about this? If so, explain how this would be practical.
Absolutely. Let's remember that high speed rail travels in speeds greater than 220 mph. If we put in a Maglev line (which I doubt we would) we could even reach speeds of 384 mph. It takes you at least 3-4 hours to get to Indy by car. You could get there in 45 mins or less by high speed rail. By far, you can get from Boonville to Mooresville much faster by rail. And let's not forget, interstates do not go into the heart of towns like Boonville. You still have to drive to the interstate just like you have to drive or ride to the train station.
realitycheck218 writes:
HSR works in densely populated areas. That's why it is utilized across areas like Europe and the Northeast U.S. The EU has a population density of 290/sq mi with some countries such as the U.K. double that. The U.S. is at 83/sq mi. Indiana, largely skewed by Indy, is at 181/sq mi. Northeastern states are over 400/sq mi. The point is it will not work in southwest Indiana today. It is probably possible in the future, not today though.
Here's another thought. Imagine Indiana 20 years from now without I-69. Do you really think southwest Indiana will have grown enough ecomomically to even be considered for HSR? You need I-69 more than any of us because without it, you'll never get your HSR.
And the last I checked they were building this road brand new, not 50 years old.
So if we build a basic Roberts Stadium arena today, would that be seen as progressive? No because the technology has improved. We should preserve old roads such as Route 66 and US 41 but it is now time to move away from constructing brand new terrain for interstates.
In regard to the density question. Take a look at the distances and populations between nearby US cities and foreign cities...
http://www.greenbayprogressive.com/progressive/story.asp?storyid=3855I got that same email a few weeks ago from the Midwest High Speed Rail Association. It is amazing just how much sense high speed rail makes for not only the US but the Midwest as well.
Let's make no mistake. No one is against the idea of I-69. It is the idea of all new terrain that I-69 opponents like myself are against. It is wasteful, costly, and useless to construct a whole new route that is only 13 miles quicker. This is the path that should be taken now...
1. Cap the current I-69 immediately. Use it as a direct route to Bloomington.
2. Begin upgrading US 41 to interstate standards. Convert I-70 and US 41 to I-69
3. Upgrade US 41 through Evansville. This includes the interchange at the Lloyd Expressway that I-69 supporters themselves are upset about.
4. Take the money saved and invest in high speed rail.
Next up is this article....
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2011/aug/02/environmentalists-sue-block-i-69-construction/I've mentioned it before but I'll say it again: Thank you CARR and HEC for standing up for Indiana's environment. It is the land that makes this country the best place on earth. To sacrifice it would be to sacrifice our most valuable asset. Both CARR and HEC understand the need for high speed rail as well.
DickNixon writes in response to
RailOverAuto:
Yes, I sure hope that the fine businesses like Boot City and the rundown Stuckeys can hang on.
Tell the tens of thousands of students and parents that there is no tangible benefit to providing a safe link to get to IU.
CARR and HEC are nothing more than a few misguided beatniks who are using this highway as their latest cause to fight the man. The vast majority of residents want this highway and want it now.
Dick Nixon joking about the development along US 41 makes my point perfectly. This interstate will do THE SAME EXACT THING as US 41. It will produce nothing but odds and ends development that will contribute to urban sprawl. To suggest that Boot City and Stuckeys would not happen on I-69 or that I-69 will bring some glorious development that US 41 wouldn't is a complete lie.
Another thing, this whole "poor IU students" notion is an absurd reason to construct I-69 when you're leaving those traveling to Indiana State on a death trap. If we upgraded US 41 and state road 68 everyone would win. Yet no one is worried about Indiana State students. Doesn't make sense.
The vast majority of southwestern Indiana does not want this interstate.
And finally this editorial...
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2011/jul/31/i-69-progress-is-welcome-for-many-near/The C&P claims that I-69 is a welcome sign for those outside of Bloomington yet they cited.... NO ONE. So while Casper the friendly ghost may be in favor of I-69, the rest of Indiana demands high speed rail. And just about every region is planning for it except ours...
http://www.indianahighspeedrail.org/routes.htmAll this article did was reinforce the core beliefs that...
1. IU students matter but ISU students don't when it comes to interstates.
2. There are no tangible facts such as job creation, safety, environmental impact, or productivity that I-69 will beat high speed rail at.
3. Carr, HEC, and Bloomington are doing the right thing.
If you look at the map of planned high speed rail routes in Illinois (which is currently Amtrak routes)...
(earthtechling.com)
.....you will see that the route covers most of the college towns in Illinois. A few years ago, I took the route from St. Louis to Chicago. It was filled to the brim with college students on it, and THEY ALL GOT TO THEIR DESTINATION SAFE!
So in summary, high speed rail is still cleaner, greener, faster, safer, cheaper, and more productive while making less noise than an insterstate. It's time for Evansville to move into the 21st Century, it's time for high speed rail to come to Evansville!
(motherearthnews.org)
(howstuffworks.com)
(www.baileylauerman.com)
